Occidental?

Jane noticed this fine new sign on Creek Road Deptford. She says “do you think that Woolwich has our “west” signs… and if so can we have them back?”

What I think has happened is the council workers who were assigned to the task of erecting the sign are taking advantage of the new age discrimintation rules and are so elderly that they yearn for the good old days when Central Greenwich was called the Manor of East Greenwich, a few hundred years ago. In which case they would only be ever so slightly wrong instead of what I suspect is, well, completely wrong…


the attachments to this post:

east greenwich
east greenwich


19 Comments to “Occidental?”

  1. Mary says:

    Glad to see our sign erectors have recognised that East Greenwich is a place of great importance and antiquity -greatly surpassing any of its parvenue neighbours.
    Happy to talk about this at length

  2. IanVisits says:

    You’d think the borough that is home to the Prime Meridian would know its East from its West.

  3. @rotzie says:

    East is the new West?
    And going the other way The People’s Republlic of Deptford,

  4. Mary says:

    I said I wouldn’t go on about this at length – and I won’t – but, clearly, and briefly: “East Greenwich” in the past was one of a small number of special Royal manors, and covered the most of the area westwards to what was the Kent border. Tudor, and later, monarchs used it as the manorial holding for all those territories overseas – where people could claim to be tenants in east Greenwich. (This has been well written up by people who understand the legal niceties better than me).
    Also – I am sure – when we get to grips with what archaeologists are uncovering along the river – that East Greenwich and its importance will emerge.
    And – if I could just also point out that the future, now emerging on the Peninsula and elsewhere, will show how everyone should aspire to have a connection with east Greenwich.
    In fact it should be on ALL the signs.

  5. Steve says:

    I must say, I’ve always considered it more important that signs be informative and functional rather than aspirational. Maybe I’m just boring for wanting to know where I am now rather than where I would have been 500 years ago.

  6. JOF says:

    The previous comments on the ‘Royal Greenwich’ fireworks relate how Greenwich, the home of world time, started its pyrotechnic display five minutes early. This item relates how Royal Greenwich, the home of world east-westness, doesn’t know which parts of the borough are east or west. Is there a theme developing here, and should we be worried about what will happen when Greenwich, the home of Royal Naval ship-building, unveils the restored Cutty Sark?

  7. Darryl says:

    Goes nicely with the Greenwich Council signs at the top of Deptford High Street which, if you look closely, read: DEPTFORD HIGH STREET SE10 until someone made an “8″ out of red paint.

  8. guest 123 says:

    oh dear, this is going to cause confusion…. deptford se8 runs from the boundary to the creek, greenwich se10 starts at the creek runs down to the a102m up to the river via horn lane – there is no east or west greenwich in an address sense – can someone tell me where the boundary of east and west greenwich is!

  9. A West Greenwichian says:

    West Greenwich is easy as it is a defined ward region. It includes the land on the SE8 side of the bridge such as Millennium Quay and the new glass Creekside building.

    http://archive.greenwich.gov.uk/Greenwich/YourCouncil/YourRepresentatives/Councillors/CouncillorsByWard/

    As for East Greenwich…who knows where that is – it’s not on the ward map!!

  10. guest 123 says:

    arh, you mean the ward not locality name…. ward names and boundaries can change depending on population size so form no part of official locality names

    millennium quay is a marketing name and no more than that – the estate has no offical name and is in se8 – deptford

    nice comment about “east greenwich” – really lets us know where you are coming from

  11. West Greenwichian says:

    Yes I mean ward not locality – that’s why I said ward.

    As for Millennium Quay I am fully aware of my local history. If I would have said Victory Wharf (to be geographically correct), few would have known what I was talking about.

    Rather than misinterpret my comments re East Greenwich not appearing on the ward map, why not help out and show us the geographical boundaries of East Greenwich fall.

  12. Franklin says:

    @guest 123: What the heck is an “official locality name”?

    @Mary: If historical precedent should determine our local place names today, then surely we should be using the truly ancient antecedent to the shortlived-by-comparison Manor of East Greenwich, i.e., the Manor of Lewisham? While the former was around for about 300 years, the latter survived for almost twice as long!

    According to Hasted:

    “The manors of Greenwich and Coombe likewise were always appendages to the adjoining manor of Lewisham, and as such were given to it by Elthruda, king Alfred’s niece [in the late ninth century] to the abbey of St. Peter, at Ghent, to which Lewisham became a cell, (or alien priory); which grant is said to have been renewed and confirmed, at the instance of archbishop Dunstan, by king Edgar, in the year 964, as it was again by king Edward the Consessor in 1044, with the church, and several liberties and privileges.” …

    “There is no particular mention of this manor in Domesday; in all likelihood, being but an appendage to another manor, it was comprehended, as part of the abbot of Ghent’s possessions, under the general title of Lewisham. William the Conqueror again confirmed this grant, as did several of his successors, particularly king Henry I. who granted many additional liberties and privileges with it.

    The manor of Lewisham, with Greenwich, &c. remained in this situation till the suppression of the alien priories throughout England, by the statute of the 2d of king Henry V. (anno 1414,) when this of Lewisham being one of them was dissolved, on which the manor of Greenwich, with the church and appendages, became the property of the crown, where it did not continue long; for next year the king settled it, with the church, on his new founded house, or Carthusian priory of Jesus of Bethleem, of or near Shene.”

    ;-)

  13. Mazer says:

    Mary and TGP,

    What are your opinions on where east and west greenwich lie?
    (could this be a new post TGP ??).

    I consider the town centre to focus around the market and St Alfege’s (i dont consider this as west greenwich as such).

    The west of this area, thereabouts, is to me West Greenwich. The naval college/museum/park adjacent to the town centre are also the at the heart of the area. East Greenwich is from Park Row eastwards all the way to the blackwall tunnel.

    Any words of wisdom please ?

    Ps. When it was the Manor of East Greenwich was there a west, and if not why not simply Manor of Greenwich ?

    Thanks

  14. Mazer says:

    Meant to say that the naval college/park etc are at the heart of Greenwich, didnt mean to imply they were part of west greenwich.

  15. Gordon of Greenwich says:

    Whilst we’re on the subject of East Greenwich – I’d love to see the Royal Borough force the owners of the Greenwich Hotel (the majestic old fire station) to tidy the place up.

  16. Darryl says:

    It’s a bit dumb of the council to perpetuate the west/east Greenwich split anyway. They’re on a hiding to nothing sticking locality names on some of those signs anyway – particularly on the boundary at Lewisham Road, where, actually, you remain in Lewisham until the Blackheath Road junction.

    Thankfully they haven’t stuck “North Greenwich” on the one as you exit that Blackwall Tunnel…

  17. guest 123 says:

    locality is easy to explain

    se8=deptford
    se10=greenwich
    se7=charlton
    its your postal address

    no mention of east/west greenwich – that is the invention of those who wish to make there address sound a bit posher…
    always hard to justify because if you are 1 road out of the posher bit where do you say you live?

    the council only ever used this description for libraries/estate offices when 2 facilities exist in the same locality hence east and west greenwich libraries

  18. Anonymous says:

    Postcodes are relatively new and are a tool used by Royal Mail for the purpose of helping them automate mail delivery.

    Greenwich and it’s boundaries pre-date the postcode system I’m afraid.

    Postcodes are used by those who wish to make there address sound a bit posher…

  19. Jane says:

    Well the good news is that the council are obviously avid readers of this blog as the sign has now been changed for a West Greenwich one. In regard to the comments above, I was assuming that they were marking ward boundries and the Deptford bits of Greenwich, the town centre and the bits down to Lewisham are part of the ward of West Greenwich. However not having seen any of these signs elsewhere in the borough I can’t confirm this… has anyone seen any of the other signs and can help us out?