English Deli Blues
Mick asks:
"I'm looking to open an English style deli in the market sq area,but am getting problems from planners, got any advice on way forward, they think ones not wanted by locals,any help will be appreciated."
The Phantom is slightly surprised. I thought that they were desperate to open shops there, despite the big fat question mark hanging over the whole area re.development.
At the risk of teaching my grandmother to suck the proverbial, are you sure the usage of the store is allowed? I've noticed "A3 use will not be considered" on several leases there.
A3 normally refers to cafes and restaurants - the sale of food and drink for consumption on the premises - or takeaways - the sale of hot food for consumption off the premises. Perhaps you intended to sell slices of hot roast beef or have a little tearoom at the back? That could be the problem.
It's where several small cafes have fallen down - the glorious Royal Teas, for one. More recently, according to the sign in their window, the council have got sniffy about the Organic Cafe - and are forcing them to move opposite the cinema (where, frankly, I think they'll do just fine - as soon as they fix that broken window - bad luck, guys...)
It does seem that the council wants to stop cafes (although I note they don't seem to have come crashing down on any of the chains - presumably it's easier to catch the small fish) but I wasn't aware that they were preventing delis.
I guess what it would be useful to know is who these planners are. Are they Greenwich Hospital (who I presume own the shops) or the council? If it's the council, then a letter to your councillor might be a good start, asking for exact reasons - it's hard to know how to fight a vague refusal. I find their argument - that locals don't want one - fishy - I can't see tourists bringing their shopping bags ready to lug home mushy peas and Cornish pasties. Is this their written reasons?
If you're asking whether locals would want one - well - do you, guys? I think if it's well done, an English deli - especially if it includes local food, would be welcome. But that's just me...
Actually, now I can't see the signs in my head it may be that A2 use is the one that won't be considered - that's financial and professional services, including bookies (heavens) - which I would absolutely agree with. And looking at it further, it would seem that a deli, unless it served food, would count as A1 anyway.
Hell, I don't know. But I'd say the first thing you need to do is get exact reasons for their refusal in writing. You can't fight a phantom (and I should know ;-) )
"I'm looking to open an English style deli in the market sq area,but am getting problems from planners, got any advice on way forward, they think ones not wanted by locals,any help will be appreciated."
The Phantom is slightly surprised. I thought that they were desperate to open shops there, despite the big fat question mark hanging over the whole area re.development.
At the risk of teaching my grandmother to suck the proverbial, are you sure the usage of the store is allowed? I've noticed "A3 use will not be considered" on several leases there.
A3 normally refers to cafes and restaurants - the sale of food and drink for consumption on the premises - or takeaways - the sale of hot food for consumption off the premises. Perhaps you intended to sell slices of hot roast beef or have a little tearoom at the back? That could be the problem.
It's where several small cafes have fallen down - the glorious Royal Teas, for one. More recently, according to the sign in their window, the council have got sniffy about the Organic Cafe - and are forcing them to move opposite the cinema (where, frankly, I think they'll do just fine - as soon as they fix that broken window - bad luck, guys...)
It does seem that the council wants to stop cafes (although I note they don't seem to have come crashing down on any of the chains - presumably it's easier to catch the small fish) but I wasn't aware that they were preventing delis.
I guess what it would be useful to know is who these planners are. Are they Greenwich Hospital (who I presume own the shops) or the council? If it's the council, then a letter to your councillor might be a good start, asking for exact reasons - it's hard to know how to fight a vague refusal. I find their argument - that locals don't want one - fishy - I can't see tourists bringing their shopping bags ready to lug home mushy peas and Cornish pasties. Is this their written reasons?
If you're asking whether locals would want one - well - do you, guys? I think if it's well done, an English deli - especially if it includes local food, would be welcome. But that's just me...
Actually, now I can't see the signs in my head it may be that A2 use is the one that won't be considered - that's financial and professional services, including bookies (heavens) - which I would absolutely agree with. And looking at it further, it would seem that a deli, unless it served food, would count as A1 anyway.
Hell, I don't know. But I'd say the first thing you need to do is get exact reasons for their refusal in writing. You can't fight a phantom (and I should know ;-) )
Labels: Ask The Phantom, Food and Drink, Planning
posted by The Greenwich Phantom at
08:16
19 Comments:
"It does seem that the council wants to stop cafes..."
Can anyone explain the logic behind this? I can understand the council wanting to enforce its own regulations on Royal Teas for example, even if I disagree and think they ought to be allowed a proper licence to cook good food.
What I can't understand is this discouragement of cafes in general. If you ignore the chains and the awful tourist traps that locals know to avoid, Greenwich needs more real cafes and restaurants not less. Is it the council discouraging them? The owners? What do they want instead, more one pound bookstores or mobile phone shops? Can anyone enlighten me?
It's deffo A3 use that the council want to stop - god knows why. Maybe the councillors like eating at the Village Green. The worst restaurant EVER!
I'd buy and visit an english deli on a daily basis should we be lucky enough to get one in the market area! Good luck with it, I will eagerly anticipate your opening!
They probably want to stop the area becoming over cafe'd. At some point, the theory goes that cafes will start eating into proper shops, the fragile eco system of shops will change, and people will stop coming/opening other sorts of shops. You might argue that higher rents is already disruping the eco system and I probably wouldn't disagree.
Thing is, I suspect the Council AREN'T ignoring the awful tourist traps that locals know to avoid - of which there are dozens. They are the ones that need to be turfed out, not the good ones. Places that give Greenwich a bad name because they serve godawful food at top prices.
I agree. GOOD cafes are always a joy. I had yet another superb cup of coffee at Royal Teas yesterday and yet another superb cup at Beehive today. Long may they make proper stuff to really enjoy. And yet the tourists still go to Starbucks. Go figure.
'Go Figure' ?
blimey Phanthom, you sound like a tourist.
Tee hee. They must have gotten to me...
On the subject of good cafes - can anyone recommend somewhere good for a greasy, hangover destroying, fry up in Greenwich?
what is up with the council preventing cafes from success? do they think there's too many of them? i think not. not nearly enough of quality cafes in London overall.
Why? Because we have lost nearly everyone of our decent bookshops, junk shops and antique shops... and all we have is tourist-oriented places selling average food that doesn't really add to our options.
I would certainly trade the Nevada St deli, and the larger Spreadeagle, for the old antique and book shop. I would love to see the crummy George 'deli' close and get back Peter Laurie's or something similar.
Yes, I'd rather see an independent caff than the usual US chain, but every corner of London has plenty of caffs - what made Greenwich unique is that quirky mix of shops, and a vibrant second hand market, which is being eroded right before our eyes.
@ross on the hill
For your greasy hangover destroying breakfast you could try the Trafalgar Cafe on Trafalgar Road, haven't been since their refurb but have had nice breakies there in the past. Another is just a few metres down Lewisham Road after you cross Blackheath Hill from Greenwich South Street - I think it's called 'Hot Pot' but i usually just stagger in without paying attention as it's just round the corner from me!
Thing is, Green Village and the other rubbish places actually have proper A3 permission - the Council can't say "You're crap so you've got to go" unless they actually breach hygene regulations etc.
The sad fact is that there is not a single good restaurant in Greenwich Town Centre, but if people try to sell food without the neccessary permission I don't see what the Council are supposed to do.
On a much happier note, De Witts Cafe was under threat at one stage, if you remember, but I bumped into Jane De Witt in the street yesterday, and that's all been sorted out, so De Witts is safe.
Well, that's something at least.
I did see the other day that the strange "cake" (I use the term loosely) shop a few doors down/up from de Witts had been emptied of fixtures and fittings.A sort of caff come Tea Shoppe that I wont miss, but I must confess I never went in . Its a strange long thin premises , I dont know what could fit into the given space. Although I have noticed we dont have any Pole Vault stick suppliers in Greenwich.
Mick, why don't you try a stall in the market first? Thereby "testing the market" quite literally! Prices for stalls during the week are really cheap. If you want a hand with any of this, give me a call.I worked in a deli for 5 years and am keen to open up something of my own one day
Sam
0789 999 5891.
Great idea, Sam. And Wednesdays are food days. let me know when you open something - all be first along to try your wares.
lovely, thanks for paying attention to my comment. i guess i will be canceling my prescription to this blog since the author is so full of himself.
Alla said...
"lovely, thanks for paying attention to my comment. i guess i will be canceling my prescription to this blog since the author is so full of himself."
Anybody got any idea what this person's problem is??
Sorry, I'm a bit late reading this post.
To Mick: if you're serious about providing great tasting, freshly roasted, coffee in your deli goto www.londoncoffeeroasters.co.uk and drop me an email via the 'contact us' page.
PS I don't want to put my email address in the blog post because it'll just end up getting spammed.
I have something to say about the organic cafe. Altough I was very happy when they oppened ( we have a shortage of good cafes in greenwich ) , Im now appauled by their prices. A jacket potato cost nearly 6 pounds! A light lunch and coffe for 2 will take you in the region of 22-26 pounds. Its ok, but the food is not as good so to charge these prices.
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