New Capital Quay!!!
London's New Waterside Village!!!
Actual Views!
Guaranteed Income up to 2012!
LONG TERM CAPITAL GROWTH POTENTIAL!!*
*selected plots only. car parking at additional cost. main image computer-generated
No doubt here about who this ad in the London Paper on Wednesday was aiming at, and it ain't anyone who actually wants to live in Greenwich.
Yup, folks, we have the delights of a new gated 'community' coming to our doorstep soon. It is, of course, that bit of land along the river by the Creek near the Cutty Sark. 600 'luxurious' apartments and duplexes amid 'riverside restaurants,' bars and a 'quality' food mall.
Anyone who reads this blog on a regular basis will know just how much I loathe gated 'communities,' cloistering themselves off from any life and soul of a local area and sapping the character from the world around them, whilst not appearing to have anything much in the way of social interaction within them either.
This one, in particular, gets my goat. This isn't intended for local people, or even for those who fancy living in Greenwich - it's what it says it is - 'an investment opportunity.' We are a commodity. It's likely the owners of these places won't even live in the area - just rent them out remotely, via some agent, on a short-term basis to transient city-types, who will take no part in the community, just hog all the good views and use the flats as a dormitory.
Presumably there will be one or two 'affordable' places - no doubt tiny little hovels squeezed in at the back by the bins - maybe even with separate entrances so they don't mess up the 'lovely' safe gated bit - but I'm assuming that all the real 'affordable' stuff will be stuck away on the Old Hospital Site (not that I'm aware this company owns any of this, but the overall plan seems gloomily likely) where there is no view and nothing much in the way of swanky facilities.
This all sticks in my craw, but there's something else that REALLY bothers me - and I would be very grateful to know that I am wrong in this if anyone has studied the plans - from the design I saw I couldn't tell.
This is a gated community. Along the Thames. What is happening to the Thames Path at this point?
They couldn't, could they?
Surely?
Actual Views!
Guaranteed Income up to 2012!
LONG TERM CAPITAL GROWTH POTENTIAL!!*
*selected plots only. car parking at additional cost. main image computer-generated
No doubt here about who this ad in the London Paper on Wednesday was aiming at, and it ain't anyone who actually wants to live in Greenwich.
Yup, folks, we have the delights of a new gated 'community' coming to our doorstep soon. It is, of course, that bit of land along the river by the Creek near the Cutty Sark. 600 'luxurious' apartments and duplexes amid 'riverside restaurants,' bars and a 'quality' food mall.
Anyone who reads this blog on a regular basis will know just how much I loathe gated 'communities,' cloistering themselves off from any life and soul of a local area and sapping the character from the world around them, whilst not appearing to have anything much in the way of social interaction within them either.
This one, in particular, gets my goat. This isn't intended for local people, or even for those who fancy living in Greenwich - it's what it says it is - 'an investment opportunity.' We are a commodity. It's likely the owners of these places won't even live in the area - just rent them out remotely, via some agent, on a short-term basis to transient city-types, who will take no part in the community, just hog all the good views and use the flats as a dormitory.
Presumably there will be one or two 'affordable' places - no doubt tiny little hovels squeezed in at the back by the bins - maybe even with separate entrances so they don't mess up the 'lovely' safe gated bit - but I'm assuming that all the real 'affordable' stuff will be stuck away on the Old Hospital Site (not that I'm aware this company owns any of this, but the overall plan seems gloomily likely) where there is no view and nothing much in the way of swanky facilities.
This all sticks in my craw, but there's something else that REALLY bothers me - and I would be very grateful to know that I am wrong in this if anyone has studied the plans - from the design I saw I couldn't tell.
This is a gated community. Along the Thames. What is happening to the Thames Path at this point?
They couldn't, could they?
Surely?
posted by The Greenwich Phantom at
08:19
39 Comments:
I agree with you entirely. There are more and more flats in gated communities that have no interaction with the rest of us. The transport infrastructure is collapsing, less and less buses, and trains that are already full from the word go. I am finding it really depressing seeing all these "luxury" flats mushrooming around boarded up and closed shops that nobody could afford to reopen even if they wanted to because of all the greedy landlords asking for astronomical rents. It is very fitting that in the Blue building on Woolwich road the glass boxes overlooking the main road are used as drying rooms for washing making it look even more downmarket than it does already. As for closing off the river path, anythings possible with Greenwich Council.
Glass boxes? Tut! Where's your Estate Agent lingo?
Repeat after me. They are not 'glass boxes' they are "Winter Gardens," ok?
I'm still confused about where these will actually be!? I lived briefly in the Wood Wharf flats while I look for my house in Greenwich and while they were gorgeous they definately didn't have much soul about them. And there were only about 40 flats in teh whole building so where on earth can they fit 600?! And when will the area become the conservation area that I keep hearing about?!
I am sorry but I have to say something here "There are more and more flats in gated communities that have no interaction with the rest of us" I live in a "Gated community" and I shop in all the local shops, go to the council gym, Greenwich Theatre & I hope to pop along to the frisbee event in Greenwich Park on Saturday. Therefore I think it's pretty crap of you to tar us all with the same brush! I know quite a few people that have moved to Greenwich that live in similar places to me and contribute a lot to the community. If you want to revert back to the times before the Jubilee & DLR extensions and no luxury flats then thats fine, however I think you would find that many of the old traditional and nice new quirky establishments that get rave reviews on this blog would not be able to exist. I think it's time to end the them and us mentality, Greenwich is changing, some parts for the better, some parts for the worst, however it is changing because it needs to, I love Greenwich and one of the best things about Greenwich is the way it has evolved throughout history! Rant over! Phantom, love your blog and so many useful tips, keep up the good work!
Of course some people from gated communities take part in the world outside them - thanks for pointing that out - I'm notorious for making sweeping generalisations which don't stand even the slightest scrutiny...
But I can't see that gated communities are the saviour of the world. They might have come as a result of new build flats but gated ones? Take Blackheath - which has many more good restaurants than poor old Greenwich - and far fewer gated communities.
I don't have anything against building luxury apartments per se, but must they be like inverse prisons? Places that lock out the rest of the world in their own little enclave are extremely forbidding to the passer-by and don't, IMHO, add anything to the community at large, even if some of their inhabitants do.
Thank heavens for the people like yourself who do take an active role in the local area rather than just using their apartment as somewhere to crash after enjoying the rest of London.
Oh - and enjoy the frisbee on Sat. Let me know how you get on... I won't be there as it involves the word 'exercise.'
I think those blue buildings on Woolwich road are terrible - they look like a pile of painted portacabins....dreadful. Can't wait to see what pops up on the Jet site!
I agree with virtually all of your comments, and I do see how gated communities seem "out of bounds" to the local community, however I don't know what to suggest! We could stop building them yes, but as I said in my previous post many of the local amenities need this new custom, I see your point about Blackheath, however I would say that I don't think Blackheath has really ever been looked upon as a run down area like Greenwich was in the 90's.
I would rather live in a beautiful terraced house any day of the week, however unfortuanatly as a 27 year old I can't quite afford the £400k + asking price for a small 2 bed terraced house in East Greenwich!
My only real point was that we are not all just fat cat city boys not giving 2 hoots about Greenwich, I care an awful lot about the local community and my girlfriend and I always comment about how we love the feel of Greenwich. I know this would get totally destroyed if everywhere turned into luxury flats however a disused petrol station surely can not be as worthwhile for the community than more people coming into the area, we just have to encourage the more like minded people to move to the area! I have had experiences when I have told people where I live and you can almost see them turn their nose up at you and assume you're a fly by night city boy, this is not really a helpful attitude to anyone!
It's a tough one, and thankfully we are all allowed our own opionions (just) in this country, it certainly would be a boring place if we all thought the same! I think it's great that for example someone like you phantom, takes the time on this blog!
I'll let you know how the frisbee goes!
It's even being advertised on TV too.
Breathtaking, frankly.
You make good points. I guess what annoyed me about this particular place is that it is not being sold to someone like yourself who clearly wants to immerse themselves in the area and enjoy the good things that Greenwich has to give.
It's being sold as an investment opportunity for fat city cats to put part of their massive bonuses into ( a million pound bonus could buy three one-bed apartments with a little change.) They will go along to a hotel in Mayfair to look at the plans, swill some Bolly and perhaps never even set foot in Greenwich itself.
They don't care where it is - it could be on the moon if they could get a good return. They don't care about facilities, save that the agency can list them and get a higher price. They're never going to see the view - chances are they'll buy off-plan on the day. And because the place is gated, it's entirely possible that WE won't get to see the view either.
If we can get tenants who actually give a damn about the place, hopefully that will make things better. But my suspicion is that what we will actually get is a load of short-term, company lets which keep the area totally faceless.
Perhaps I'm wrong and they will all turn out to be lovely, frisbee-playing citizens like your good self.
Inspector - what channel? Just how downmarket are we?
Hey, some of us City Fat Cats do our shopping in the local shops, eat in the local restaurants and drink in the local pubs. Also does Blackheath have more better quality restaurants than Greenwich? I would say its the other way round.
Ahh, I believe that Fat Cat has not had the pleasure of Pizza Luna... or mild food poisoning from the San Miguel Tapas place... And there are houses in West Greenwich for under 400k! And lovely ones at that!
I just had to pipe up that I have lived here since 1978 and there were actually interesting traditional and quirky places in Greenwich even then.
Phantom - either Sky News or Sky Sports News. Can't remember which.
As someone who reads (and rips apart) agents’ guff on a daily basis in my employment, I can see why this one has gotten on people's nerves. It still grates my nerves the way they butcher the English language. Ugh!
That said, I don't think that housing developments on brown-field sites are bad per say. Quite the opposite, the reason house prices are so high in Greenwich and everywhere else are so high is because there is a shortage of housing, alleviating that can only be good for the community.
I wouldn’t worry too much about buy-to-let investors either, this advertising campaign smacks a little of desperation on the part of the agents and (or) developer. If they were confident they could get buyers through word-of-mouth or local agents they wouldn’t bother.
No one in their right mind would invest in buy-to-let property in the current market. Interest payments on mortgages exceed rental income for all bar those with the largest deposits. Most people expect there to be little or no increase in house prices in the coming year. In short, it’s a sure-fire way to lose money. You’d be better off putting your money in the Northern Rock!
However I am disappointed by the Phantom’s inverted snobbery. Some of my best friends are “city types.” I think the assumption they do little to contribute to the community is simplistic and in many cases downright wrong. It’s lazy stereotyping and wouldn’t be acceptable on the basis of race, age, sex etc. I can’t see why it is ok on the basis of wealth or profession.
Tee hee. I must be controversial a bit more often. It's certainly got everyone talking.
Three years of stirring on Casino Avenue taught me one thing.
One someone is "disappointed" in you, you know you're right :-)
I'm a big fan of the blog, but on this occasion I don't really agree.
On balance I actually think Capital Quay is a good thing for three reasons:
1 - It's a lot better than what's there at the moment...er nothing! Rather than a bit of wasteland we might as well at least have flats here which bring people into the area...
2 - ...people who by and large do use the local facilties and are part of the community. I mean, come on, we are talking about Greenwich here and not the wilds of Beckton.
I think if you move to this area and shut yourself into the development ignoring what's around you, then you are pretty strange indeed. Everyone I know who lives in the neighbouring millenium quay development certainly feels part of Greenwich and takes advantage of what's on offer.
3 - Most importantly and from a purely selfish point of view I've heard that a Waitrose will be built in Capital Quay (does anyone know this is actually true?).
Living in Greenwich town centre, you basically have the choice of the often (after the day trippers have been) empty shelved M&S, and the truly awful Somerfield.
A proper supermarket within walking distance of the town would be a huge bonus, so if there are going to be amenities that we can benefit from in Capital Quay then I'm all for it being built.
Living in Greenwich town centre, you could get off your arse and go to Lewisham, or Surrey Quays, or east Greenwich for your shopping.
Not everyone wants to spend their lives surrounded by Do As You're Told shopping centres.
Oh, and Millennium Quay's actually in Deptford.
There's a small clue in its postcode.
Living in Greenwich town centre, you could get off your arse and go to Lewisham, or Surrey Quays, or east Greenwich for your shopping.
Gosh, who'd have guessed I could do that. Thank you for the tip.
Oh, and Millennium Quay's actually in Deptford. There's a small clue in its postcode.
You are full of helpful hints, aren't you? I am well aware which postcode it's in. It doesn't cancel out the point I was trying to make.
Yes it does. Because Millennium Quay is not "part of Greenwich". It is in Deptford, a place as worthy of your support as Greenwich is.
And if you're happy to jump on a bus or walk a little way to find your supermarkets, then you won't be needing one to help screw up Greenwich town centre, will you?
You ever thought of guest editing this blog while the Phantom is away, Inspector?
The good natured way you deal with people who disagree with you, would surely go down a treat.
Inspector Sands you are a gimp. Millenium Quay is a good distance inside Greenwich - you might ask Greenwich Council what they think.
A couple of other points.
1. Re the sanctimonious wailing of 'they couldn't do away with the Thames Path could they?!'. Firstly the building of the Millenium Quay estate removed a stinking toxic ex-power station from the path. It's now a rather more pleasant experience, to put it mildly. Secondly, it was those corporate whores from Millenium Quay that most insisted to the developers of New Capital Quay that a footbridge be built from MQ and NCQ, thus enhancing the path (e.g. no diversion around Creek Road). If commentators here were less knee-jerk about rejecting redevelopment, they might get off their lazy conservative asses and join the efforts to make the footbridge a reality.
2. Afforementioned lazy asses have also missed the efforts to have a small museum as part of the waterfront attractions on NCQ, which reflects the history of the Creek. Sigh.
Don't hate the fat cats. Instead take some time today to go into a church and light a candle for them. Anyone daft enough to get involved in this investment opportunity is going to lose their shirt.
You heard it here first.
Blimey, this is a popular one, well done Phantom!
Personally I don't care if fat cat city types get fleeced by investing in the buy to let market at the wrong time - they will simply have to ask daddy for some more money or wait until next years bonus to buy another one somewhere else. However, the bottom line is that whoever actually ends up living in the flats, sorry ‘apartments’, will be more ‘local’ people with some disposable income (one would assume) which might just encourage local restaurants that it could be viable to offer a quality product and encourage repeat business instead of selling crap to tourists on the understanding that you will never see them again so it doesn't matter. Personally, anything that makes restaurants better in Greenwich is a very good thing indeed. And I’m sorry, but I would like a Waitrose too!
I'm with M32. Ulitmately, I guess, it doesn't matter who owns them, only who lives in them - and if they are intrested in becoming part of the area then I welcome them with open, ectoplasmatic arms.
Brown field sites WILL be built on. I just wish they weren't built like fortresses.
Personally, I don't believe that someone buying property in London is ever going to lose their shirt. They might miss out short-term, but while we're still short of places for people to live prices will keep on growing.
Where do I sign, Nano, to join the efforts to make the footbridge a reality??
--Emerges from dictionary looking up 'ectoplasmatic'--
1. The Council planning department are the people to talk to about the footbridge. It wasn't included (as far as I understand) as a s106 agreement when NCQ was agreed, but had the status of 'in the plan, but unconfirmed'. It will obviously be expensive as it will need to open to allow the boats to chug along down the Creek.
2. Is it really going to be gated? The waterfront attractions - resturants, bars, studio spaces etc are open. So too the proposed Waitrose. Will it be gated in the same way Millenium Quay is? (i.e. a gate in the road, which you can either walk around or wait for 5 seconds to open as you drive up in your car.)
3. Targetting investors 5 years ahead of the build finishing is just how it goes. These companies wouldn't be able to finance rescuing brown-field rubbish dumps otherwise. It won't have any impact on the type of residents - they will be a mix of owner-occupiers and renters on 1 year leases like everywhere else.
In my copy of the London Paper - (and let's face it, everything you read in there is set in stone, ahem)there's a fullpage advert which says
"London's new waterside village on its own gated peninsula"
Sounds pretty fortress-like to me. Still - it could just be Estate Agent speak bigging-it-up for investors. I hope so.
I am most interested to find out about the bridge - it would be fab.
"Inspector Sands you are a gimp. Millenium Quay is a good distance inside Greenwich - you might ask Greenwich Council what they think."
It's in SE8. Greenwich Council controls Deptford from Watergate Street up to the creek, including the old Deptford Power Station site where MQ is now.
What a lively discussion. The river really is a major selling point- even if the shoebox that you buy or rent hasn't got a clear view of it.
Over the next few years the development of the peninsula will continue and thousands more people will move into SE10. The character of the area and of central Greenwich is bound to change- almost certainly to exclude many lower paid people who could previously afford to live in East Greenwich.
Like it or loathe it, the future has been planned.
Ah Inspector Sands you concede! -- tips hat in a gentlemanly fashion --
I'm sure NCQ won't be 'gated' in the sense of excluding the outside world. In any case, the best part of NCQ for those that won't be living there will be the amenities on the water front and they certainly will be open to all.
The fortress point is interesting though. It something MQ certainly got wrong - the way the big flats on the waterfront block off all view of it, and are 'protected' from the ajoining council estate and Creek Road by a fleet of lesser flats! The designs for NCQ do seem to attempt to avoid this - there are gaps and 'interchanges' amongst the various blocks. It's meant to reduce the 'fortress' effect. We shall see.
There is nothing wrong with luxury flats. There is everything wrong with Gated Communities. I have lived in them in the past in Surrey Quays (just because they were there, not because they were gated) and they do cut people off from the community at large.
They give the impression that you need to be scared of the other people who live in the area and this can create a "them and us" atmosphere.
It isn't healthy.
As a resident of MQ I agree that the gate at the front of the development is slightly ridiculous. However, comments that NCQ won’t be such a fortress are missing the point that the residential blocks will be at least 10 storeys high with the ‘signature’ block reaching a jaw-dropping 13 storeys. Compare that to MQs 6 storeys and ‘fine mixture of town houses’!! Probably a main contributor to the gated feel of MQ is that there are no public amenities, save the Mace corner store, which means no ‘local’ has need to go to the area magnifying its feel as a gated community. Blame the developer Fairview and the Council, not us.
Anyway, I digress from the NCQ. No investor will lose their shirt. The FIRST ‘apartments’ will not be ready until 2011. I’m not even a casual economist but am willing to wager that any fluctuation in house prices will have levelled off by then. And the Canary Wharf effect is not going away; so I can’t believe a previous comment that you can find a house in West Greenwich for under £400k. It ain’t happening!!
As a Deptford/Greenwich resident, I love the local area and enjoy it as much as possible. That West Londoners think it ‘uncool’ is fine by me – leaves it to us. But facts remain. The dirt where NCQ will be needs to be improved and Pizza Luna type restaurants need to go!
Yo, Brian!
I went to have a look at the development the other day, and I guess the 'gated' bit could be the end of the Peninsula. I confess it's not doing much at the moment there (I'm most intrigued by the scaffolding tower - was that erected so that they could take a photo of the "actual view" they're promising in the ad?)but gates are grim - they DO create a them and us feel - they make the people outside feel resentful that they are not "trusted" and the people inside feel cut off from the world IMHO.
I agree with you about MQ. With one tiny little corner store, there is a lonesome feel about it. Presumably as the rest of it builds up, they will think to put some facilities in there rather than just assume that everyone wants to use it as a dormitory...
I have been reading everyone's comments about NCQ. I am a thin cat...defenitely not wealthy...but have managed to join the fat cats and bought a flat in NCQ at the launch. If you can't beat them... I will let you guys know if and when I lose my shirt!!
Anonymous, I sincerely hope you lose your trousers too.
Yes Millennium Quay is in SE8, but Deptford is in the borough of Lewisham, and Millennium Quay residents pay their council tax to Greenwich. At least I did when I lived there...
Sorry to be a pedant but I couldn't resist wading into this one!
Honestly they could not have thought of a better name in these heady credit crunch times. The chances of actually raising the finance for this project now is very unlikely. Work on the Paynes & Borthwick Wharf has ceased due to the moneyman pulling the plug and the Galliard fashion for buy now with 5% deposit won't work when the outcome is a flat worth less than you signed on the dotted line for.
Trust in the investment banker as every cloud has a silver lining. Great blog by the way.
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