Stockwell Street Development.
Thought I'd share a conversation I've been having with Suzana about the plans for Stockwell St Market. Most annoyingly I can't for the life of me remember where I saw the plans for this recently - all I can remember is that I wasn't able to see them very well but that I was staggered by the size of the footprint they intend to take over, erase then redevelop.
Wherever I saw them (and sorry, scratching the head just doesn't seem to work) I am still trying to work out whether and if so just how much I hate them. I so love our scruffy, bitty, funny little market, that to see it all covered over like any other town in Britain hurts me. The plans aren't horrid in themselves - uninspired, maybe, unexciting, definitely. I guess it's what's called progress and since sundry locally influential groups seem to think it's ok, it will be happening. I just think they could have been a bit more - well - interesting.
It's weird, isn't it, that while I would love to see nice, clean streets and excellent shops and services, I would also be truly sad to see what is, if I'm honest, probably the tattiest bit of Greenwich cleaned up. I'm actually rather fond of those grubby old warehouses, that bloomin' awful ex-petrol station and the higgledy-piggledy layout that has evolved over the years. Actually, no - that's not really it. What I will miss is the individuality of the area - the make-do-and-mend feel to the shops, the bizarre mix of stalls, the true one-off feel that even somewhere like Camden can't quite get any more now it's been cleaned up for the weekend goths.
But here's what Suzana thinks:
Im in two minds. When I first came to Greenwich I loved it for the type of people that lived in Greenwich - wanna be actors / singers / mediators / sculptors etc... I met them all (at the Time bar then) and it was one big happy family... And if it had stayed that way - I wouldn't change it for the world. Now - Its lost loads of that.
So, I agree - I will cry when the dirty market gets closed down... but if it closes down and Greenwich changes for 'ever, then lets do it all the way and make Greenwich into a real hot spot - Get more trees on the one way system (and not olive trees - they just wont grow!) and get the Thursday night student spew off the pavements. Lets make it classy but cool - Have you been to the Gypsy Moth?? That is what it should be like (food is great) - or dare I say what they are doing with the Admiral Hardy? (I know Its Inc - but it works well with Greenwich) - more so than Inc itself!...I love Olivers and even the Spread Eagle looks like what the rest of Greenwich should look like... Classy but still Greenwich
To answer your question on the development - I have been promised that the buildings will be in keeping (I have my fingers crossed) and when the shops go it - I hope they are truly first class quirky and high street shops alike - I will protest against any further cheap takeaway - I truly hate them!. I want a mini Richmond in Greenwich (Is that a bad thing?) I think it has all the potential but not sure it has the full backing from Greenwich Council... and unfortunately not the clientele (yet).
Finally, I hope they spend the money needed on the design of the whole Cutty Sark area - It doesn't look good from what I ve seen! But let me know!... and its this sort of stuff that I want to poke my head in and have a say... wish me luck :)
We have to move with the times, but my greatest fear is that they ( the developers; council and all the freeholders ) will get it wrong.......
Phantom Replies:
Hmm. The buildings 'in keeping?' That's a very subjective statement...
I agree with much of what you have to say - not sure about the 'mini Richmond bit' - what I love about Greenwich is that it's not up its own backside, that the people are just that bit more down to earth and diverse than in South West London - but I hear what you're saying. Good luck with joining the fray...
I'm not sure that the Cutty Sark area will directly benefit from the development at Stockwell St (unless it's some kind of Section 106 thingy) but I agree we need something to cheer that concrete nonentity up - maybe they could relocate the Stockwell Street market stalls there ;-)
So anyway - Suzana and I are already chatting - but what do other people think? Is it about time we swept those scruffy market stalls off the face of Greenwich and replaced it with something cool? Or are we doing ok as we are?
Wherever I saw them (and sorry, scratching the head just doesn't seem to work) I am still trying to work out whether and if so just how much I hate them. I so love our scruffy, bitty, funny little market, that to see it all covered over like any other town in Britain hurts me. The plans aren't horrid in themselves - uninspired, maybe, unexciting, definitely. I guess it's what's called progress and since sundry locally influential groups seem to think it's ok, it will be happening. I just think they could have been a bit more - well - interesting.
It's weird, isn't it, that while I would love to see nice, clean streets and excellent shops and services, I would also be truly sad to see what is, if I'm honest, probably the tattiest bit of Greenwich cleaned up. I'm actually rather fond of those grubby old warehouses, that bloomin' awful ex-petrol station and the higgledy-piggledy layout that has evolved over the years. Actually, no - that's not really it. What I will miss is the individuality of the area - the make-do-and-mend feel to the shops, the bizarre mix of stalls, the true one-off feel that even somewhere like Camden can't quite get any more now it's been cleaned up for the weekend goths.
But here's what Suzana thinks:
Im in two minds. When I first came to Greenwich I loved it for the type of people that lived in Greenwich - wanna be actors / singers / mediators / sculptors etc... I met them all (at the Time bar then) and it was one big happy family... And if it had stayed that way - I wouldn't change it for the world. Now - Its lost loads of that.
So, I agree - I will cry when the dirty market gets closed down... but if it closes down and Greenwich changes for 'ever, then lets do it all the way and make Greenwich into a real hot spot - Get more trees on the one way system (and not olive trees - they just wont grow!) and get the Thursday night student spew off the pavements. Lets make it classy but cool - Have you been to the Gypsy Moth?? That is what it should be like (food is great) - or dare I say what they are doing with the Admiral Hardy? (I know Its Inc - but it works well with Greenwich) - more so than Inc itself!...I love Olivers and even the Spread Eagle looks like what the rest of Greenwich should look like... Classy but still Greenwich
To answer your question on the development - I have been promised that the buildings will be in keeping (I have my fingers crossed) and when the shops go it - I hope they are truly first class quirky and high street shops alike - I will protest against any further cheap takeaway - I truly hate them!. I want a mini Richmond in Greenwich (Is that a bad thing?) I think it has all the potential but not sure it has the full backing from Greenwich Council... and unfortunately not the clientele (yet).
Finally, I hope they spend the money needed on the design of the whole Cutty Sark area - It doesn't look good from what I ve seen! But let me know!... and its this sort of stuff that I want to poke my head in and have a say... wish me luck :)
We have to move with the times, but my greatest fear is that they ( the developers; council and all the freeholders ) will get it wrong.......
Phantom Replies:
Hmm. The buildings 'in keeping?' That's a very subjective statement...
I agree with much of what you have to say - not sure about the 'mini Richmond bit' - what I love about Greenwich is that it's not up its own backside, that the people are just that bit more down to earth and diverse than in South West London - but I hear what you're saying. Good luck with joining the fray...
I'm not sure that the Cutty Sark area will directly benefit from the development at Stockwell St (unless it's some kind of Section 106 thingy) but I agree we need something to cheer that concrete nonentity up - maybe they could relocate the Stockwell Street market stalls there ;-)
So anyway - Suzana and I are already chatting - but what do other people think? Is it about time we swept those scruffy market stalls off the face of Greenwich and replaced it with something cool? Or are we doing ok as we are?
Labels: Debates
posted by The Greenwich Phantom at
11:38
13 Comments:
There's 100s of people who make a living from the Stockwell St market site- I know as I'm one of them. There's been talk of redevelopment for as long as I've been there; almost 20 years. I suppose it will happen one day. I just hope the traders there are considered; maybe the idea of a market next to the Cutty Sark on weekends would work.
I assume that Suzanna is talking about the quality of the shops when she hopes that Greenwich will become like a 'mini Richmond'. Greenwich itself is not a mini anywhere! It is unique and deserving of its world heritage site status. I'm personally far less fond of Richmond with all of the smug sleekness of many of its residents (although as property prices continue to hasten Greenwich towards becoming the dormitory of the City and Canary Wharf- I suppose a change in character- for the worse in my view- will follow).
As for the market- there is far too much cheap imported tat amongst the art and craft stalls- and I can rarely be bothered to visit- but obviously, lots of people do. I expect what they like is the novel quirkiness of the current setup and people who want an over-sanitised lifestyle can head off to Lakesside, Bluewater or the Dome/O2. But hey, its Sunday afternoon, the sun has just peeped out and I will rant no more.
A mini Richmond? Pfffffffffffffft.
(sorry)
How long have the Stockwell Street plans been knocking around for? I'd completely forgotten about them, and their scheme to cover over the railway cutting. I'm sure they've been kicking around for at least six years.
I would be horrified if the Gypsy Moth was used as any sort of template for 'what (Greenwich) should be like'. It's loud, soulless and massively overpriced postmodern imitation of a pub aimed, chillingly accurately, at a combination of idiots and tourists. I am amazed it's not an Inc establishment, as it seems to be pushing Inc values even more effectively than the Monster itself. The Spread Eagle, meanwhile, (regardless of the quality of the food, which I am sure is excellent) is an unfathomably depressing example of what I am sure we can look forward to having more of. A slick, brash and dead-eyed re-mould of what was once a truly wonderful, intimate restaurant. Olivers is the absolute antithesis of these sorts of places: they day it gets swept away and replaced with a sanitised, character-free parody of a piano bar is the day I leave Greenwich.
I'd love the Council to recognise how valuable the market is as a start to local artists and young retailers.
I can remember buying photos from Fergus Noone's stall in the covered market and his is EXACTLY the kind of individual shop and local business I'd like to see more of in Greenwich (or Richmond for that matter!)
I guess the problem is young artists' stalls don't have the same rateable value as shops in a neat development and there seems to be no local organisations to champion the quirky.... perhaps we should start?
(Or does the Greenwich Society already do this?)
Kate is really on the ball in capturing the importance of stalls being available at an affordable cost for young artists. A friend had a stall in the main market hall many years ago (I can remember looking after it on more than one extremely cold day). She was eventually priced out when the cost of renting became uneconomic. The alternative seems to be for artists to try to sell through shops who often demand 50% or more in terms of their mark-up.
Having lived here for over 30 years I can remember when the market "rules" were just antiques and collectables. Fabulous bargains, we just about furnished the house with our "finds". All three markets have changed so much over the years, but I am very much in favour of the young artists being given a platform. I dont think the Greenwich Society would stoop so low as to champion them, but you never know.
I think the various bodies in charge of Greenwich town centre would baulk at the thought of anything "young" getting its chance - judging by the contents of the recent Greenwich Dead festival.
Here's a link to the site where you can see the plans that had ben submitted to the planners - they may have changed now as the site has subsequently been acquired (last year) by the retail development subsidiary of Liberty International (FTSE 100 property company). Perhaps they should look at how well the new Spitalfields market development looks - they've combined independent market traders with the typical high street type retailers really quite well.
http://www.bwcp.co.uk/HTML/Current_StockwellSquare.htm
But before 1999/2000, there were almost *no* high street outlets in Greenwich town centre at all. We don't need any more than what's there - Lewisham's only down the road, after all.
Spitalfields is odd, because if you treat it as part of the City (which it almost is), then it fits, especially with the dramatic architecture of Bishopsgate. But if you treat it as part of Shoreditch, it's very weird indeed. I think that kind of development woild look very wrong in Greenwich.
OK OK... I have read you remarks and have realise that I wasn't exactly clear with definition in my conversation with the Phantom. When I say 'like Richmond' I mean clean! yet near a beautiful park with enough organised shops to enjoy and prevent me from having to go to the city... Its more the idea than any specifics mentioned in your response.
I agree with all of you that space should be dedicated to up and coming artist...and I think putting them near the Cutty Sark is a wonderful idea!!!
Unfortunately, Greenwich is changing and if we don't push for those things we want... we deserve what we get!
Does anybody have any links with the Greenwich Society??
Maybe we all need to join en-masse...
i've lived nearby all my life, and the the pick of the racks of £15 Levi's have been all i've bought in the way of trousers since i was fourteen.
the stockwell market is a godsend because, although a grand portion of the merch is (i assume) second hand, it is never marked up in the wanky manner of Spitalfields gear and branded "Vintage".
To the planners - unless you want Greenwich's adolescents wandering about in their underwear, leave the Stockwell market well alone.
James
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